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[Cancelled] The Pride Of Hiigara - Phase 3: Electronics
(2014-09-12, 02:41:42 PM)spypengen Wrote:
(2014-09-12, 02:36:40 PM)davidfg4 Wrote:
(2014-09-12, 02:33:45 PM)spypengen Wrote: chain a bunch of USB-PCIe adapters together with USB hubs

From what I understand the PCIe extenders aren't actually USB, they just use USB cables for convenience.

I know it's basically having multiple GPUs share a lane.

but I don't know if its possible and it will most likely be unstable.

I don't see it being unstable, the gpu's would just have a timeshare for the lane. But I wouldn't try it anyway. Those splitters are around $200 US from what I hear.

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I've seen a few 10 port USB 3.0 hubs on Newegg for around 40 USD.
~Spy Pengen
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CPU power!
The extenders would be like splitters. You have a x4 slot. You can split it into 4 x1 slots. However, you can't split the already split slot into a further 4 x1/4 slots. That wouldn't work. At least, I don't think it does, and even if that was possible, I don't think it would be effective.

Anyway, I've been talking with a guy I met via Ingess, who owns a construction business. I asked if he has wood and acrylic in stock, and he said he does. Hoping to get some quotes from him tomorrow, but I'm still stumped on a design idea. I've scrapped several ideas already, and I'm thinking I just go ahead and use the very first idea I had, which was to use my base avatar. Here's the idea:

Firstly, to minimise the damage to my wall (ie, reduce the number of holes in it), I will first create a base. This base will mount to the wall on one side, and everything else will mount to the base on the other side. It will be painted the same colour as the wall, and there will be a small clearance, so as to stick most cabling behind. To hide the gap, additional wood will be used to close those areas off. Think of it like skirting. All wood will be plywood, for its strength. Both chipboard and MDF have horrible strength to weight ratios.

Secondly, is the design itself. Using my base avatar, I will cut out each individual piece, for a total of 32 pieces. The material will be clear acrylic, with the front face painted. I haven't decided on colours yet. Once all the pieces are cut to shape, the edges will be beveled, so that they have 45 degree slopes on them. Then, a pair of 45 degree bevels will be made in the center of each piece on the underside, where LEDs will be attached, and will be as long as the strip of LEDs. These pairs of 45 degree bevels will be together, so that there is a 90 degree angle where the bevels meet. The purpose of these, combined with the edges, is so that the edges are lit up when the LEDs are on, giving it a glowing outline effect. The painted front face will stop the light from simply going through, and emphasise the edges. As for the center bevels, that's something I got from that other wall-mounted rig. The guy said it made the edges brighter. I'm guessing because it made the physical phenomena of total internal reflection more efficient.

So that's the design. Layer two. Now for the most important part. Layer three. The actual computer hardware. Where abouts on this design would I place it all? Given that I have about 4 meters to work with in each direction, and the design is roughly scalable to 4 meters width, and 3 meters height, that would make the large circle almost a meter in diameter, I could place the motherboard right in the center of that, one or two hard drives to either side, and a pair of PSUs above it, then place all the cards on either of the two wings in a diagonal fashion. To hide the cables, simply have them fed through small holes in the design and base layers to keep them almost completely invisible.

Concerns and uncertainties:

1: Would this ruin the look of the design? Would adding the hardware on top of it make it look too cluttered?
2: Would I be able to directly mount the hardware to the design and have them visible enough from the edge glows, or would I need to add an additional mounting layer between the hardware and design and create another glowing edge on them? I have a feeling that might be too much, and definitely result in my concerns in my previous point.
3: I'm still unsure of the colour scheme. Or rather, where to apply the colours and how. I think I've decided on a blue and yellow colour combination. Red and black, while epicly mean looking, has been done already (and we all know how our community feels about red and black Mary Sues...), so hopefully my choice seems reasonable enough.
4: No idea where to put the radiator(s). Water pipes can run along with the design in an appropriate matter (ie, following the shape, curvature, etc, of the design), but those big-ass rad(s) will most certainly ruin the design. Perhaps they should just be mounted off the design, somewhere at the bottom. That's all I can think of.

Whew! That took a while to write out! Anyway, what do you guys think?

Also, in case anyone is curious, what I plan to do with dual PSUs is that one will be a primary, powering the mobo, CPU, RAM, drives, lights, cooling, and some of the cards. The second PSU will power the rest of the cards. I plan to purchase some aircraft-style shielded switches (the ones with the red safety covers), and create a switch panel. One of these switches will be cycled to turn the primary unit on. Then, once it turns on, I will have a molex going to the triggering legs of a 12v relay. The other two legs will be connected to the green cable, and a black cable on the secondary PSU, so it turns on exactly the same way as it would when you short one with the paperclip method.

Other items for my panel will be a switch to control the lights, another to control the fan(s) on the rad(s), since they will likely be AC and independent from the PSUs, a water temperature gauge or two, and if I can think of something, an emergency power cutoff if the water temperature is too high, such as in the case of fan or pump failure. I might add a master power switch as well.

EDIT: Since my craptastic laptop is craptasticly craptastic, I drew up a rough sketch of how the design would look with hardware in specific locations: Linky. Hardware is emphasised in the image. Central location contains the mobo, PSUs and drives. Wing edges contain possible locations for GPUs.

EDIT2: Building on from the previous edit's drawing, this is my first thought for how the water pipes would be laid out. The outflow and return flow pipes are stacked on top of each other, so in this image it looks like only one is present. They are just layered. The dotted lines represent sections where the piping is behind the design and base layers. I stopped drawing at the main pipes meeting the smaller circle, since I'm not yet sure how to proceed with the order of pumps, reservoirs and radiators.
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Each physical PCI-e slot should only have 1 GPU connected, there is a reason why splitters are not common. For each full length slot just use a riser and if you run out of full length lots then use the USB cable extenders in the short slots

hiig there is a reason why circuit diagrams don't look like the actual circuit. I don't understand shit about that diagram, just draw it like a flow diagram. Like this:

Also the pump must be physically lower then the reservoir as the pump needs to always have water in it.
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I'll see what I can do about drawing a proper flow diagram tomorrow, though the main purpose of drawing that second one was to see how it would look, rather than behave
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I've been looking and I've come across a 140mm-120mm and a 120mm-90mm adapter. I was thinking you could make kind of a compressor with them and then mount the radiator between them and that way you could get more air through the radiator but you would probably need to find a 90mm fan with an ultra fast RPM.
~Spy Pengen
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CPU power!
With that many object in the loop you will need 2-4 pumps, a rig with 7 GPUs is high on the extream end so I will need to ask on a dedicated watercooling forum.

Your two options are a Laing DDC and a Laing D5.

In the image you linked in the beginning ( the guy is using two D5's.

D5's typically have a higher flow rate then DDC's but slightly lower pressure at the same Wattage, but new D5 models go to a higher wattage.

D5s dump the heat they generate into the loop whilst DDCs dump it into their housing and may need to be cooled.

Personalty I think you will need a few D5 Vaio's (variable speed, 37W max)

For reference I use a single D5 Vaio mounted inside my reservoir on half power to push water though my 2 CPUs water blocks, a 120mm rad and a 240mm rad on my server. And a single DDC to push water though my 7990 (practically 2 blocks as it needs to push water past both GPUs), reservoir and 240m rad in my desktop.
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I'm sure whatever heat they dump into the loop will be insignificant. Best get it cooled like that and prolong its like, than to further complicate this system with dedicated pump coolers as well.

(2014-09-13, 12:09:00 PM)spypengen Wrote: I've been looking and I've come across a 140mm-120mm and a 120mm-90mm adapter. I was thinking you could make kind of a compressor with them and then mount the radiator between them and that way you could get more air through the radiator but you would probably need to find a 90mm fan with an ultra fast RPM.

Would take up too much room, and stick out quite a bit. Found a better solution. Squirrel cage fans.

All I need to do is to build an adapter so the radiator fits on the flange. SC fans are incredibly quiet from what I'm told, and if I can find one that is more long than wide, I can easily have a very compact cooling solution.


So I was suggested by a veteran water-cooler that I do not pipe things up in parallel, as I had intended with the GPUs, and instead make the entire system go in series. That is:

Pump -> CPU -> GPU1 -> GPU2 -> GPU3 -> ... -> Radiator -> Reservoir

My concern is that if I do this, cooler water entering the first GPU will become progressively hotter, and by the time it reaches the last GPU, you've got hot water trying to cool hot components. However, I was told that this is not the case, and that the temperature variance for the water would only be about half a degree.

I hope he's right, because this would make piping much simpler and cheaper. What do you think Spazzy?
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Likes: SilverComet
but it won't look as cool. if you went with my design you could place the fans blowing downwards and make it look almost like a jet pack.
and the adapters are as as the fans big so it would be at most 1ft long, because you would be using a lot of nuts and bolts it should be easy to mount
this is a picture of the 120mm-90mm adapter. notice the nozzle type design, the the black jet pack like finish.
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also if you were to use this you would probably need to buy some rubber sound dampeners to help trap the air it should also provide faster and stronger airflow through the radiator.
and squirrel cage fans become less effective as the air gets hotter, but if you really want to use one try to use one with a backward-curved blade.

hiigaran Wrote:Pump -> CPU -> GPU1 -> GPU2 -> GPU3 -> ... -> Radiator -> Reservoir
you should set it up where the hottest parts get the water first. and depending on how you set it up that would probably be the GPUs
~Spy Pengen
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CPU power!
Series is the way to go, temp increases should be insignificant.
Fluid physics are complex, the water is typically the same temp at all points in the loop.
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Okay, I'll do that then.

(2014-09-14, 03:07:27 AM)spypengen Wrote: and squirrel cage fans become less effective as the air gets hotter

Isn't that consistent with all fans?

Also, as I mentioned before, SC fans are more compact, which is why it's a better choice than a fan with adapters on it. I don't want to put too much hardware on the design layer, since I want to avoid obscuring it more than necessary.

EDIT: Have a draft wishlist of the main hardware components.

EDIT2: Sent an email to that contact I have in the construction industry who owns the store. Unless I've forgotten something, these will be the items used for building the base and design layers. Since I brought no tools with me to Dubai, not even screwdrivers, I need to buy every single tool needed as well.

Quote:As per our discussion earlier on, I'd be looking for the following tools and materials:

- 4 meters by 3 meters of 10mm plywood and 5mm acrylic
-- For plywood, it doesn't matter what sizes are available, as they will be attached to each other to create 4x3m. However, the size of the acrylic boards will be important, as two of the pieces that need to be cut will each measure approximately 2m by 1m. For reference, the acrylic pieces will form the design in this rough drawing:
-- Based on the image above, I will use less acrylic than 4m by 3m, but until I can jumble the parts into a smaller area for drawing and cutting, I will use the maximum 4m x 3m measurement.

- Metal braces, or any pieces of metal used to join adjacent boards of wood together via screws
- 10 mm plugs
- PVA glue, or similar wood glue
- 9mm or 10mm long pan or round headed wood screws
- 15mm to 20cm long flat headed wood screws
- 40mm to 50mm long flat headed wood or acrylic screws

- Jig saw with adjustable base to at least 45 degrees
- High TPI density acrylic blades

- Drill, minimum 450w, with standard and hammer settings
- Assortment of metal and masonry bits from 2mm up to the maximum for the drill chuck
-- Any drill bits with a 20cm length or greater?
- Assortment of magnetic screwdriver bits, and an adapter for drill chuck

- Sanding machine
- Manual sanding block
- High grit sandpaper, suitable for dry and wet sanding

- Soldering iron, minimum 70 watts
- Solder spool

- 5m extension power board
- 10m spool of electrical cabling, 3 core
- 2x standard earthed electrical plugs, 13A

- 50mm paint brush
- 20mm paint brush
- 2 liters wood paint, indoor use
- 2 liters acrylic paint
--Haven't decided on colours just yet. If pricing varies with colours, please provide an average cost

- Claw hammer
- Hacksaw
- Pliers
- Wire cutters
- Wire strippers
- Measuring tape, minimum 3 meters, 5 meters preferred
- Masking tape
- Spring clamps
- Protective gear for eyes, hearing, and respiration
- Work gloves

Please let me know if any of the listed equipment is unavailable. If you also sell plumbing equipment and parts, I may inquire about those at a later stage, perhaps December or January.
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Oh, if you are spending that much money then use 4 *

That way you should have plenty of pumping power to move water though the loop.

Or if you want the reservoir to be attached to the pump then use 4 *
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Hmm...Interesting looking combo. I may have to think about that, especially as to how to best incorporate it into the design. Though, I'll probably just end up taking the pumps on their own, and adding a small res later on.
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Got a bit of an update. The price list has started to arrive. There were several delays which meant having to wait longer for these prices, but most of the prices have arrived. Now I can start to plan the project a little better around them. Overall, this first stage is looking to be a little over $1000, so not too bad, considering the size of this project. The acrylic will probably be the most expensive part of it all. As such, I need to minimise the cost of this particular bit, and this is where I will need help from someone who can use graphics editing programs, preferably vectoring. I'll explain...

Before I can start cutting the acrylic to the shapes that I need, I will have to have some sort of guide, for accurate and consistent results. So I need to somehow transfer a graphical version of my design, onto a physical form. What I would greatly appreciate from a volunteer would be the following:

1: Download the original design image
2: Using a graphics editor, create a vector of each individual part of the design
3: Jumble the parts around by moving and rotating them, so that they fit into the smallest possible space

The boards of acrylic are sold in dimensions of 4 ft by 8 ft. The final assembled design would be 4 meters by 3, which is 13.1234 x 9.84252 feet, which would require four boards worth of acrylic. I'm hoping that it might be possible to get that down to three, if the different parts are compacted

Ideally, I would want to print this jumbled design out, so that I can use it to trace the shapes out onto the acrylic, but since most printers don't print using the entire sheet of paper, I cannot create seamless prints with them.

I'm actually kind of stumped on this. What other methods could I use?

In other news, I think I'm also set on using copper piping for the water cooling setup. Buy some standard soft-copper pipes that would be seen in standard plumbing, get a couple of tools to bend the pipes as necessary, along with a flaring tool to create the ends, a few fittings here and there (or in my case, a lot), and you've got yourself an alternative to tubing, that doubles up as an additional surface area to dissipate heat!
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Go to a printing store. They're pretty cheap IIRC, even for large size stuff. Obvs you won't get the bulk price because you only need one, but you also only need it in black, which is cheaper.

Or you can just do it with multiple sheets on your own printer, if it supports borderless printing. Just modify margins/borders/etc in printer and document settings and you should be able to get it. That's how I did my NMM case way back when.

Also, why are you using copper piping for your cooling? I don't see any benefit to it, plus it looks ugly. Just buy that hip new plastic piping that everyone is using for their homes these days. Or even in-floor heating pipes, though they aren't as flexible.
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